Cool to start but hot later. And probably sunny. And hot. I’m reasonably sure there will be humidity too. That’s about how yesterday went.
Did my pickups. Nice score for my non-prepping hobby. And the Encyclopedia. It is in great shape, smells right…
Gas prices seem to be going back up. Almost everywhere outside of Houston was $2.96 or even higher. I paid $3.09 and it was E15 so my mileage will suck. That was a Loves, where they had biodiesel at the pump and a CNG pump too. There was a big sticker on the E15 pump listing all the things you can’t use it in. It says to do so is a Federal offense. WTF? We need a Federal law about putting the wrong gas in vehicles? That right there is a good example of what’s wrong with .fedgov
Part of today will be getting ready for the foundation guys. We need to clear out the 1/3 of the house that will get foam injected through the slab to lift it and fill the void. Anything to keep moving forward. I’m sure I’ll find stuff to do to fill any remaining time…
Keep stacking while you can. Work that meatspace too.
90 Comments and discussion on "Sun. Sept. 25, 2022 – at the lake, working, working, working…"
No joke – Buc-ee’s now has all important routes covered leaving Dallas.
IIRC, The Beaver attended Texas A&M. The location strategy lately seems to be targeting routes between SEC football cities and Dallas venues where big games are played – Jerry’s World and The Cotton Bowl.
… or whatever they call the building these days. Jerry’s World hosts the “Cotton Bowl” as of late.
E15 is crossing the line where a lot of older engine components are not going to handle the higher alcohol content very well. I wouldn’t put it in my 2001 Toyota, and I’d be really wary about using it in beater pickup of that vintage which I imagine will be the target of the next “Cash For Clunkers” once Tony starts delivering the Jesus Truck (TM).
(Say, where is that Jesus Truck anyway?)
The ethanol is so expensive anymore that the mandate to add it to gas is a permanent entitlement to the corn lobby. E15 is where it gets obvious.
I used to reference the gigantic production facility – so large it can literally be seen from space – between Kansas City and Omaha, but it doesn’t show up on Google anymore.
In college, I got really good at using a pair of nail clippers to strip solid core jumper wires for prototype boards. I could even do braided wire if I was careful
I have proper wire strippers now.
The models keep shifting west, but the naive assumption will be that the Gulf Coast of the Peninsula is “safe” and evacuation orders ignored, especially if they come from “DeSatan”.
SW winds into Tampa Bay at high tide will be ugly, especially in the new developments built in the swamps between Tampa and Clearwater.
All of the Peninsula south of Gainesville is “swamp”, but some parts more so than others.
Geesh, Mexico Beach was just starting to recover.
There are lots of big ethanol production facilities to look for, if you are so inclined: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/ethanol-plants/
The definition of E15 includes an ethanol level of 10.5-15%. With the price of ethanol high, you can bet it’s at the lower end.
Henry Ford designed the Model T engine to run on farm alcohol. Maybe he had better materials than we get from China.
The oil industry’s proposal for an octane and oxygenated fuel additive was oil-derived MTBE, and it was actually implemented in a few states. Twenty years after it was banned there are still thousands of lawsuits over drinking water contamination and the litigation cost will easily dwarf asbestos. We dodged the Camp Lejune everywhere bullet by a hair.
The engines can handle the alcohol, but the problem comes with the supporting components like fuel lines. Go back 20 years, and a lot of an F150 or Silverado pickup was made by US suppliers, but they built what was spec-ec.
TPTB want to eliminate private ownership of cars. No other goal makes sense.
Ford was building Flex-Fuel Taurus engines to run on E15 (up to 83% alcohol) in the mid-90’s. The cost to upgrade seals, gaskets, and hoses was less than $25. I never saw a reliable estimate of the cost to upgrade the EFI, but I doubt it was much more.
The API and auto manufacturer’s have played the “may void your warranty” game for years while turning a blind eye to the total crap quality of much of the E90 sold. Use a funnel to fill a gas can through a paper filter and see what you catch, particularly from an older gas station.
And after Obama raped the Delphi shareholders and gave the company to the unions, why would any investor make auto parts in the U.S. ?
If $15,000 is used for the cost of battery replacement, the break even average would be about $8.85 per gallon.
But if the cost of gasoline were to double due to anything but a pure tax levy, it’s likely that the electricity cost to recharge is going to go up, too.
And then there’s that small matter of the unquenchable battery fire impacting your renter/homeowner’s insurance. Underground parking might be unavailable, too, especially in an apartment complex where the majority of residents aren’t too keen on having incendiaries under their bedrooms. And if your development has ten houses per acre and your bedroom is 20 feet from your neighbor’s garage, how long is it going to take to have EV parking restriction ordinances?
The automakers don’t really know what E15 will do in any platform put into the pipeline prior to the mid-90s for a early 00s release date, which covers a lot of vehicles still running reliably on E10, particularly beater trucks which generally belong to a demographic which actually has to get things done rather than play “Show ya” games with EVs.
@drwilliams: it’s easy to get to the conclusion you want to see if you fudge, or just flat out make up, the numbers. For example:
“Every battery in an electric car sold in the U.S. comes with a warranty that lasts for a minimum of eight years or up to 100,000 miles, says CarFax. For example, Kia offers a battery pack warranty for 10 years or 100,000 miles, while Hyundai provides a lifetime coverage of its electric cars’ batteries.”
“The hundreds of gently topped-up cells inside an EV battery mean that each battery pack is expected to retain its charging-discharging capacity from 100,000 to 200,000 miles. Manufacturers are so confident of the battery’s road use that most electric cars come with an extended warranty of eight years, or 100,000 miles.
“The battery will outlive the car,” says Graeme Cooper confidently. “Today, most EV batteries have a life expectancy of 15 to 20 years within the car – and a second life beyond.””
”2023 Nissan LEAF Pricing
At its most basic, the 2023 Leaf S has a manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP) of $27,800, plus a $1,095 destination charge. The 2023 Nissan Leaf SV Plus starts at $35,800. One of the biggest options with this model is a premium 2-tone paint job for $695.
Even after all these years and two generations, the Nissan Leaf electric car is still eligible for a federal tax credit of up to $7,500. And there are state incentives as well. For example, California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate program offers $2,000 to anyone who buys or leases a new Leaf EV.”
If you don’t like 3-5 years (20-33,000 miles/yr), make it 5-7 (14-20,000 miles per year)
It makes no difference in the subsequent calculations, which were based on 100,000 miles, which, coincidentally, is the lifetime of the citations you made, uselessly.
As far as the Nissan Leaf, you’re welcome to run the figures. They’ve sold about as many in twelve years as Tesla sells in six months. And $60,000 is a decent average for the out-the-door price across the three variations of the Model S.
So, you just showed:
“it’s easy to get to the conclusion you want to see if you fudge, or just flat out make up, the numbers”
by doing it yourself.
You would have done slightly better using a Razor scooter.
EDIT: Six months of Tesla sales, not six weeks.
I’ve seen the Hyundai lifetime guarantee of the hybrid battery packs, but I’d like to see a link to the manufacturer’s website where that kind of warranty is specified for their EV vehicles.
Replacement of a hybrid battery is a whole different process than an EV battery replacement. A “lifetime” warranty would most likely not include labor.
Of course, under US law, a vehicle warranty doesn’t guarantee a new part, just that the manufacturer will provide an acceptable part, possibly out of a junkyard wreck, something many Hyundai and Kia owners would be familiar with if they have experienced engine and/or transmission problems in their IC cars.
No, they weren’t. Not honestly, anyway. They assumed a replacement battery at a cost of $10,000:
See? In other words, they assume you need two batteries to get to 100,000 miles (the initial one plus a replacement). My links showed that’s a faulty assumption: the batteries are reported to last 100,000-200,000 miles each. The $10k replacement is unlikely to be necessary and inflates the cost to advance the author’s agenda.
I could pull a Nick and be crude about how you can Google things yourself, but I’m feeling generous today. So:
I’m not hip to the latest mergers and acquisition news, but the last time I checked, Nissan and Hyundai were not part of the same company.
In order, Hearst Publications, S&P, and an electric utility company – no conflict of interest there.
That’s not Hyundai’s lifetime warranty. Nissan and Hyundai both make cr*ppy small cars — Nissan trucks are still ok — but they are not the same company … for now.
You’re the one using Hearst, S&P, and an electric utility as authoritative sources on the warranty terms. No conflicts of interest with any of those. No siree.
Show me a *Hyundai* lifetime *EV* battery warranty.
Ah. I thought you were asking for any manufacturer, not Hyundai specifically. In that case, here (even though you could have found it yourself):
As for opinions about the quality of either resources or cars, I’m not inclined to give much weight to the opinion of someone who bought a Ford….SUV.
Doesn’t look like lifetime on the EV battery to me, but I’m not a lawyer.
Notice the movement of the goalposts. Who said anything about “lifetime”? The original claim was needing two batteries to get to 100,000 miles.
Your trolling is becoming less subtle.
I’ve been pretty consistent with my opinion about the Exploder quality and the sins of the Ford Motor Company here. Others defend the model and the manufacturer.
I did not buy the vehicle, another fallacy on your part. Get your facts straight.
Nissan hads some super ugly designs. Cube, Leaf and Juke were all bad, among the ugliest ever made.
We had a 280ZX in the 80s. Looked great and was fun to drive. Not a super sports car by any mens but was reliable and suitable for a couple without kids. I wouldn’t touch a Leaf if it cost $20K and got 600 miles to a charge.
No kidding. Now they are just ugly to homely.
I have a 2019 Frontier. It’s a nice truck. But once in a while from various angles it’s just very homely. The whole front grill looks “off”.
Added: I can’t tell you why it looks off. All the engine stuff that I can see looks normal. Though normal for me is various Chrysler products. I don’t see a reason for the grill to be bulging out, there’s not a huge amount of space between the radiator and the grill. But it looks like I should be able to stash a propane tank up there. Shrug.
At the 10-year mark it may have 30% of the original capacity? I’m not sure that would be acceptable.
I thought the Cube was “not pretty” but cool. Too small. Then again, my favorite car overall was my ’78 Volare station wagon. Pretend the accent mark is there.
Yeah, I liked the heck outta my ‘75 Cordoba. Miss it still. And the ’74 Imperial was fun. Then the ‘81 Imperial that made ya feel like King S#it. There was an ’83 or so Cordoba that was a nice car and a few 5th Avenues happened, too. Several Dodge pick-ups….
I like station wagons. Mom may have dropped me on my head.
No gun violence problem in the U.S., no siree.
Seems like the website summary is missing a “to”. The actual warranty indicates a minimum of 70%.
page 23: https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/content/dam/hyundai/us/myhyundai/manuals/factory-warranty/2022/2022-Owners-Handbook-and-Warranty-Information.pdf
”Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery Capacity Coverage will maintain at least equal energy capacity to the original Battery before the failure occurred but no less than 70% of the original battery capacity.”
That’s some “expert estimates” which is not the same as “reported to last”.
The Carfax link says:
I see weasels: “if properly cared for” and “can easily last” and “seriously diminished” and “perhaps”.
[There is an Edison bulb in Texas that is reportedly still working after more than 100 years.]
The batteries the “experts” are “estimating” haven’t been around long enough to give us real-world data. But based on experience with lithium batteries in laptops and tools, we know three things:
Battery capacity diminishes over time.
Battery capacity diminishes with deep discharge.
Battery lifetime does not meet “experts” projections.
None of which give us any confidence that the battery is going to make it to 100,000 miles. If the mean is indeed 100,000 miles, then 50% will fail before then, or effectively so as the range becomes unusable.
So if half the EV’s need a battery replacement to get to 100,000 miles, the $10,000 becomes $5,000. If the $10,000 is really the price of a battery. See below.
And there is a fourth thing that we know: All of the EV’s phone home. Tesla has the data on performance, but they don’t seem to be sharing much. Wonder if the “if properly cared for” and “can easily last” and “seriously diminished” have anything to do with it.
And in fact, the cost to replace a Tesla battery seems to be a lot more than $10,000 out-of-warranty:
Speaking of the costs, long before we mine 10 to 100 times the amount of lithium, copper, cobalt, etc. that has been refined since the beginning of civilization, there might, perhaps, be an impact on cost.
So to improve the comparison, we could start with brand-new vehicles, run them 100,000-200,000 miles, and then sell/junk them at the end. A GV with an old battery doesn’t make any appreciable difference. A Tesla with 100,000 miles on the original battery is going to be worth perhaps $10-20,000 less than one with a new battery under warranty. I’m sure Kelly’s already has a line item for that.
But there are other factors not yet discussed. How about range and time to refuel?
Middle range Tesla, 340 miles range when new, 306 miles to 10% charge, 23 minutes to rapid charge 10 to 80% adds 272 miles. [After 50,000 miles, Tesla claims 5% loss in capacity: 281 miles to 80%, charge adds 259 miles]
GV 400 mile range on the highway (30mpg on a 13.3 gallon tank, 360 miles to 10%, 3 minutes to dispense 12 gallons 10 to 100% adds 360 miles.
[Assume the overhead time required to exit, get to the head of the queue, and get back on the highway are equivalent, even though the evidence points to more time on average for the EV. Assume also that the facilities to refuel exist at the ideal 10% level, which we know if not near true for EV’s]
For any trip over about 300 miles one-way, the EV adds at least 20 minutes. Same on the return. 40 minutes RT. Longer trips the range difference results in 33% more stops for the EV under ideal conditions.
What’s the total over 100,000 miles? At 1 such trip per quarter, only 160 minutes per year. Should we compute that at standard rate, overtime, or holidays?
And then there’s infrastructure:
3 minutes vs. 23 minutes. Roughly 15 customers per hour for gas vs. 2.5 for electric. One-sixth the capacity, 6X the number of vehicle spaces. 100,000 gas stations in the U.S. becomes 600,000, or are they just six times as big? Is Elon subsidizing restaurant co-locations, too?
Effect on charging time? Effect on charging cost? Tax dollars subsidize the purchase price and the operating cost? I suppose you want free Charmin blue, too?
I have questions about warranties. Foremost are they 100% or prorated? My experience with KIA gas vehicles is when they say 10/100000 they mean it.
Oh well, Joe and Pete will make them, then have the taxpayer cover it. But only electric.
Still borrowing your mom’s car or did you sign for that dream used Hyundai?
Wow, you’d need a telescope to see where the goalposts are now. Since essentially none of what you said has anything to do with the original claims (range, charging time? Give me a break) I’ll let you pretend to have won. But just to establish that you didn’t, the warranties obviate the $10k line-item the author added to misleadingly pad the overall cost.
The bulb is in California, by the way.
The estimates being based on data from vehicles driving in Southern California coastal climates in every study I’ve seen posted online.
Electric vehicles were tried around 1900. The range was 100 miles or so in vehicles about the size and weight of a Model T. That wasn’t acceptable then so internal combustion it is.
The range now is more, but the new cars are heavier to start and pack a lot more batteries. More weight. to haul around.
EV cars are fine for puttering around in a city. That’s about it other than the acceleration from stop that leaves your dangly parts in the back seat.
Out here? It’s almost 20 miles to WalMart or Tractor Supply. Going to Austin? What part? Downtown is maybe 70 miles. One way.
Battery charge life when it’s 30F or 105F varies. Which affects range. My truck doesn’t care… 16 MPG per tank of gas.
Mayor Pete was in town this weekend along with a bunch of politicians. The make pretend newspaper of record in Austin, The Texas Tribune, held a “festival” downtown and a bunch of Dems showed up including Buttigag (how do you spell that again?) and Robert Francis.
So did Rafael Edward. Things that make you say “Hmmmm”.
I give you Gary Patterson, interim head coach at UT by the end of the season.
The one in California was installed in the late 1890’s. It has been turned off many times during its early life span although the specification is rarely. How long was the bulb turned off? Even six times for three years at a time is significant. The light bulb in Texas was installed in 1908 and has been turned off only once. So which bulb has actually been “operating” longer?
The bulb in California is only operating less than 15% of its rated output. The bulb in California, operating at diminished capacity, is that due to age or reduced voltage to preserve the bulb? Any filament bulb, operating at 75% rated voltage, leaving just a glow, will last a very long time. Thus I find nothing spectacular about the longevity of the bulb.
As for EV batteries, probably close to the same chemical makeup as cell phone batteries. Maybe some tweaking due to current demands and charging demands. Both are lithium-ion batteries so close; I think.
The phone in my last iPhone was at 80% rated capacity after 3 years. Extrapolate that to 6 years and maybe a little more than half capacity. The phone was well taken care of. I don’t know the depreciation rate on the batteries as maybe the most happens in the first couple of years, like vehicles.
I don’t really see any EV batteries lasting 100K miles. That is a lot of strain, and heat, on the batteries. In use heat and charging heat. Heat quickly destroys or degrades batteries. Even under warranty I suspect the dealer, or manufacturer, will find some excuse to say the batteries have not been properly cared. The home charger may be blamed, the travel center charger may be blamed. The cooling system may be blamed as not being properly serviced.
There are a lot of variables in the life of a vehicle battery in which the manufacturer will back away from the warranty plate. Such behavior has happened to me on my IC vehicles where some bogus reason was used to deny a warranty claim. I have personally had a friend with a Prius that had battery problems after 50K miles. Toyota said it was because he “abused” the battery and did not have it properly serviced. I see no reason that Tesla, Ford, GM, Nissan, would not pull the same stunt.
I suspect there will be a lot of Teslas worth nothing at the end of 100K miles. No one is going to want to purchase a used vehicle worth $10K and spend another $15K to make it work. Along with wear on other components, brakes, bearings, rattles, dings and gouges. Is the cooling system for the batteries separate or replaced with the battery pack as part of the replacement?
As for me I would never have an electric vehicle and park it in my garage. It would be parked close to the end of the driveway. I would never, ever, as in NFW, have an electric pickup. It would take me 90 minutes to get to Crossville, normally a 45-minute trip, if I was pulling my travel trailer. I would have to stop once to recharge. Gaining 1,300 feet in altitude would be stressful on an electric pickup pulling a 7K pound load. Even with IC my mileage is about 7 MPG on that part of the trip. Driving to Nashville and back might consume an entire day with no time spent in Nashville.
The Edison lab in Fort Myers has a bulb which the guides claim (claimed?) has been burning since Tom himself installed it in the late 1800s. I’ve heard differing stories about the truth about the longevity, but running DC – Edison was famous for being an opponent of AC, as any “Bob’s Burgers” fan can tell you – at low current is going to result in a long-lived bulb.
Tesla Model 3, four years old, 100,000 miles: 2.2% range loss.
Watch at around the 10 minute mark.
There’s another report of a Tesla with one million miles on it. The battery was replaced at the 746,000-mile mark and has 91% capacity after the added 250k miles.
Don’t worry, I won’t hold my breathe waiting for any measure of mea culpa from you, Greg, or mrwilliams
I thought the oldest light bulb was hanging backstage somewhere on Broadway. Not high wattage, maybe 10 watts. Enough to be able to see without toting a FLASHLIGHT.
Two examples to define a trend???
Exceptions in any group, either low or high would be expected.
And yet, amazingly, I’ve provided infinitely more evidence than simply saying “I don’t like this technology so I’m going to baselessly assert it doesn’t work”, which tends to be the norm here.
But how does use history affect the warranty?
If the manufacturer says to avoid draining the battery below 10% charge, and each charge cycle is recorded, then what happens when the data show X-times below 10%, with Y-times effectively zero? When does the manufacturer claim you voided the warranty? Or just lopped 10,000 miles off?
If I have a Ford Exploder in Fargo in the winter my gas tank remains the same size, and as soon as the car warms up my gas mileage is about the same as summer.
A Tesla, OTOH, has a smaller “tank” in the winter as the internal resistance of the battery goes up. Worse, if the polar vortex comes to town and drops the temp to sub zero, your charge is suddenly much less as the internal resistance of the batteries goes up. Red mark for below 10% even if you didn’t mean it.
Please provide a link to the report about the 746,000 mile Tesla.
As for the subject of the video, Mr. Slye, Louisville, KY is not exactly the harshest climate in the US, and you are assuming he’s being honest when a considerable portion of his income seems to originate from creating popular YouTube videos which mostly consist of material related to his car.
You are confused, dishonest, and a chronic cheap shooter.
Just because you can come up with another set of assumptions does not invalidate the assumptions used by others.
And citing outliers does not prove anything any more than the chronic smoker that reaches 100 years of age.
So, here’s the definitive reply to your objections:
Let’s consider the cost of ownership of driving a vehicle 100,001 miles.
I’ve provided more than enough to rebut the constant stream of Gish gallop put forth here. You’re capable of running your own Google searches.
Absolutely, let’s. But do it honestly, without making assumptions without evidence (or even worse, and what has been happening here all day, assumptions that are contrary to evidence) about how long things will last or what things cost.
Start by striking out the $10k battery replacement line-item, given that it’s either unlikely to be needed or, failing that, covered under a warranty. Run the math again without that extra padding. Then we can talk.
Maybe you’ll find out that EVs are still a worse deal than ICEs. That’s fine. I don’t care. I do care about cheating and being misleading just to reach the conclusion you want to.
746,000 + 250,000 = 996,000, not one million
Hit me with the Gatorade when I finished my victory dance.
By your numbers, the lifetime and warranty are 100,000 miles.
It needs a new battery and it’s out of warranty.
Tesla charges $22,000.
Do the math.
“Gish gallop”. Now that’s a new one, Old Bean.
You complain that this site has strayed from what Bob intended, but Bob was always about the science. A link to a story and video about Tesla fanboi who derives income from making Tesla fanboi videos isn’t very scientific evidence to prove the point.
I rounded. Greg can confirm once he gets his Googling done.
Not true. All will be revealed when Greg updates us.
250,000 miles with 90% range retention destroys your calculations.
If you want to claim that failure before 100,000 (or 100,001) is the norm, you have the obligation to provide evidence to support that. And, no, the expiration of the warranty period is not proof of lifetime. How far past the warranty period has your car lasted? Your laptop, or anything else with a Li-ion battery?
If you can’t win without moving the goalposts, quit the game.
Go back and re-read today’s posts. Padding the calculation by baselessly claiming a battery routinely fails before 100k miles is not “science”, it’s agenda.
This game bores me and the room, Old Bean.
Hut hut hut, Woe-toe-hice.
I don’t believe the software will all that level of discharge. I seem to remember where Tesla sent out a software update in an area affective by a weather event that allowed extra range. When the event was over another update restored normal discharge. The software in the car does a lot of monitoring of the batteries to avoid problems.
How old is the vehicle? If it was a model S, first released in 2011, that would make the car a maximum of 11 years old. A million (rounded) miles would mean the vehicle traveled 91,000 (rounded) miles per year. Most commercial truck drivers average 80,000 to 110,000 miles per year. Based on those numbers that Tesla was driven more miles than by commercial truck drivers.
My BS meter pegged on the claim of a million mile Tesla.
Fixed that for you. And, makes sense, since it is used as a taxi.
Norming an outlier does nothing but make you look foolish.
No such claim was made.
Foolish. And dishonest.
Nit picking. Used by the defeated.
The average cab driver does about 46,000 miles a year. That is for an 8 hour day. To reach 90K miles that Tesla would have to be in operation 16 hours a day. Of course part of that time is standing. That only leaves 8 hours a day to charge. If a fast charger was available. Certainly possible, highly unlikely. Then there is down time for maintenance, tires, cleaning, brakes.
My BS meter is still pegged on a million mile Tesla.
It sure was. The source you blindly copied/quoted claimed that the cost of operation required a $10k battery replacement before 100,000 miles.
Just like Nick and his pharmacy nonsense, this would have been much simpler if you were to just say “oh, I see that’s an unreasonable assumption. Let’s re-run the math”. Instead, you dig your heels in and continue to look foolish. What a joke.
Step 1: http://www.google.com
Step 2: “million mile Tesla”
Judge for yourself.
Warning: You might find information that is difficult to assimilate into your worldview. If the real world is too scary for you, you can always bury your head in the sand.
I checked on Tampa/GreenBush a number of times, but stuck with the President’s Cup for most of the afternoon. Tom Kim is 20 years old and lighting up the golf world. I haven’t played golf for twenty years, or what vaguely resembled gold.
Like mrwilliams, who wants to quibble about a use of rounding that results in a 0.4% difference in mileage? There, I agree with you.
Step 1: Provide a link that works.
As opposed to the location of your head that involves a view of the interior of the lower intestine. The owner claims to have purchased the car in 2014 thus owning the car less than 8 years. That puts the miles per year at 125K miles per year. More than truckers. No claim of use as a taxi, your original assertion.
To achieve that many miles he would have to drive the car 340 miles a day, every single day. I guess he rested on leap days.
My BS meter is still pegged. I put no stock in his story. Frauds occur all the time and I believe his claim is another fraud.
@Ray: Those are a lot of words to defend mrwilliams, his lack of evidence, and your own immaturity.
Let me simplify things for you and others:
Provide the most basic shred of evidence to support the claim that an EV battery will typically fail before 100,000 miles AND not be covered by a warranty—a claim that is at the heart of the line-item for a $10k battery replacement—or admit that the line-item is nonsense and re-do the math.
He bought it used, with mileage already on it.
Also, “fewer” was the word you were looking for, not “less”.
Sunny and 81F in the shade here. Slept late. Started a new book last night and it sucked me in. Stayed up too late.
RIP OFD. Legacy.com reminds me that this is the anniversary of his passing.
Ref: Ed: Ford … SUV
I drive Fords and have no use for anything from Japan. I was a child and heard inadvertently heard the WWII vets and Filipinos in my Navy town talking about the things the Japs did to the White women in the Philippines and Singapore. I therefore boycott all things Japanese.
I never buy a Japanese product unless there is no reasonable alternative. I don’t have want to deal with them if I can avoid it. I have never been in a Jap car dealership. (I have never been in GM show room either; I really have no use for Government Motors.)
Ford’s aren’t perfect but BMWs and Korean products are decent options. Jap stuff is not “decent”.
“It sure was. The source you blindly copied/quoted claimed that the cost of operation required a $10k battery replacement before 100,000 miles.”
Not at all. An example that fully disclosed the assumptions, including the battery replacement.. You’re perfectly welcome to make your own, but there is no experience that shows that including the replacement cost of a battery in the first 100,000 miles is unreasonable. Portraying it otherwise is simply dishonest on your part.
The example did have a flaw that you overlooked, either because you didn’t notice or it was in your favor. The GV costs included $2000 maintenance. If you want to rake out the $10,000 for the EV battery replacement, take out the $2000 in maintenance for the GV. Then run the numbers.
Can you run numbers, Neddie? If you take out the EV battery and the GV maintenance, the breakeven would be gas at $5.60. That assumes the cost of electricity doesn’t change, which is unlikely.
I could use your methods and claim that the average gasoline cost–stated in the example as an assumption at $3.50–is “baseless” and the correct number is the average of the last 5 years, about $2.50. That knocks another $4000 off the cost of the GV while leaving the EV numbers unchanged. So, $50,000 (rounded) for the GV vs. $62,000 (rounded) for the EV. Still a loser.
You wanted to use a $34,000 Nissan Leaf for comparison to a $40,000 GV.
The problem is that they don’t compare. Using the venerable Ford Taurus sedan as the GV, the Taurus MSRP would be lower, the curb weight would be higher (with a better safety rating), and the passenger and cargo capacity would be much larger.
And the range of the Taurus would be about 450 miles compared to the new Leaf at 80-170 miles. After 5-years, the Taurus would have the same range and the Leaf would be 52-112 miles.
Looking for other comparisons, I could select a non-sedan Ford Escape Titanium Hybrid for $34,000, have better passenger and cargo capacity, and get avg mileage of 41 mpg at about the same weight as a NL.
That would give it a range of about 635 miles. Not really a fair comparison.
Of course, there might be some advantages. Two passengers in the back of a Nissan Leaf would be more than eager to get out at the first charging station, and your mileage would probably be better when they refused to get back in.
Actual study of Nissan Leaf battery life:
”Fewer” is a synonym for “less”. So both work. I have provided a link.
When you start picking on simple grammar, questionable at that, that is trivializing the entire discussion and diverting the issue.
My issue is with 100K warranties. Has anyone used the warranty? Will the warranty really be honored?
Case in point is with my brother and his Dodge pickup. 36K bumper to bumper, 60K on power train which includes engine, transmission, and drive train, warranty. The turbo in the truck failed, tossed a bearing, at 49K. He took it to the dealer for a warranty repair. It was denied. Reason? Turbo is not part of the engine as the turbo is attached to the engine and not part of the engine. Dodge corporate sided with the dealer.
I have zero faith that any EV manufacturer will be any different.
Nonsense. Your link proclaimed it to be a fact:
Since you’re now admitting it was, at most, a misguided, unsupported, and unsupportable assumption, I’ll take the trophy on this one.
I’m not sure how old you are, but, when I went to school, nuances mattered. Do you think “literally” means “figuratively”, too? Then again, you routinely abuse the passive voice to the point of your prose being unintelligible, so maybe you’re beyond hope.
We have a claim of one Tesla taxi and no claims of any Nissan Leaf taxis.
If the Tesla is a superior choice, why is the Ford Escape Hybrid the most common taxi in NYC?
Maybe you should hop a plane to NYC and see how your argument style works there.
Can’t back up the blather you’re spewing, so of course you default to lowest common denominator insults. Perhaps you’d be happier at 4-Chan?
The Nick Apple has fallen VERY far from the Bob Tree.
I remember being told about Fords, Chevies, and Chryslers when I was about eight years old.
Dodge is the only manufacturer that puts their entire operating instructions in big letters on the vehicle: “Ram”
You are now grading English papers? How quaint.
Really? Unintelligible? Then why do you even respond? Maybe I right [sic] that way to bring it down to your level.
This is not a formal English paper or college thesis. I have written 27 articles for computer related journals for which I was paid quite well. I choose to not make the same effort here. How many articles have you written?
Petty criticisms in which you gloat are nothing but diversions from a person of limited knowledge, left side of the bell curve, who cannot stand to be incorrect.
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity cannot. You sir, cannot be cured.
April to September. Five months at the most. Might be under warranty.
Never did here what happened in Australia.
No undergrads to berate until 10 AM tomorrow morning.
There’s an old joke about the sheer weight of National Geographics causing the North American continent to subside.
In the 80’s and 90’s the computer mags were giving Geographic a run for the weight. My triage system was to tear up some (InfoWorld, for example, keeping Metcalf and a few others, including the original BobX), retain most for 12 months (new one in, oldest one out after slashing), and keep a few indefinitely. The good articles got little postit notes peeping out the top. Byte was in the latter category, although after one shelf was filled in my barrister’s bookcase I cut the ads off the older ones with a razor knife and carefully filed Chaos Manor. Some of the programming journals like Dr. Dobbs I kept intact I boxed them in one place, realized I would never look at them again, and put a “free to good home” ad in the local.
Did you keep copies of your articles?
Ve have vays:
>> Nissan hads some super ugly designs. Cube, Leaf and Juke were all bad, among the ugliest ever made.
We had a 280ZX in the 80s. Looked great and was fun to drive. Not a super sports car by any mens but was reliable and suitable for a couple without kids. I wouldn’t touch a Leaf if it cost $20K and got 600 miles to a charge.
I don’t think the LEAF (all caps btw, it’s an acronym) is ugly at all, although I will admit a bit of bias since I do own one. As for the Cube, well I favor the Honda Element for that design style, and the Juke, okay, you can probably convince me to go with ugly.
A few things that were missed during today’s scrums:
The amount of ‘fast charging’ that an EV battery pack is subject to has an impact on its longevity. My LEAF had 14K miles on it when I bought it and had been fast charged less than two dozen times. In the year I’ve had it I’ve fast charged it once. It was a one-owner car that ‘lived’ in San Diego, which is an ideal climate for an EV. The battery had 100% capacity when I bought it and still does.
When comparing the cost of an EV to a GV one should also consider that an EV has about 90% fewer moving parts than a GV does. Tire rotations/replacements and cabin air filter replacements are the extent of a LEAF’s routine maintenance. I expect the brake pads to last the life of the car (due to regenerative braking) and the first coolant change is at 125K miles.
I will admit it’s not the “perfect” EV, and Nissan chose not to address its two main issues: the battery pack is passively, not actively cooled, and the fast charging uses the deprecated (in the US) CHAdeMO connector instead of the CCS connector.
For a little more than half the original sticker price I’m happy with my LEAF.
#Ed: I don’t know how to break this to you gently, so I’m just gonna give it to you straight: You’re boring–boring, boring, BORING!
Yes, I did. Paper copies only of several due to an unfortunate crash of a hard drive and loss of a backup tape. The majority are moot now as technology has long passed them their usefulness. It was fun to do the articles. I even won a copyright battle with a company.
Quite a few things were missed.
Your location and use (including care in charging) make the LEAF a good choice for you. For most people they are not. That begs the question as to why the taxpayers should be subsidizing new car purchases or installation of infrastructure.
The life cycle cost question of the impact of battery fires is not trivial, and has yet to be determined by the insurance companies.
The higher initial purchase price will result in higher licensing costs in most states, adding more to the front-end cost imbalance.
But the largest problem by far is that there is no plan to produce the raw materials needed other than NIMBY. Biden has not only canceled pipelines and oil/gas leases, he has also canceled mineral leases for some of the metals that are needed to produce electric vehicles. Developing a metals mine in the U.S. is a decades long process, but there is no strategic plan to do so for critical needs.
The U.S used to have some stockpiles of strategic metals. In the early 1990’s Congress saw this as wasted money and authorized the sell-off of most of it:
72% of our cobalt usage is imported. Most of world production is in Russia and Africa. The U.S has many vaguely identified potential sources but there has been no effort to properly survey any of it.
So, in a survey of 100 men, how many do you think would give up a ribeye for a chance to have sex with
I’d guess only the ones that have preferred Y-chromosome-denying pronouns.
The Nick Apple has fallen VERY far from the Bob Tree.
–and so Ed outs himself as NaN AND breaks my rule of not invoking Bob.
You’ll need a new persona.
yes… A minute silence to remember OFD. The reminder came last night.
Plus of course RBT.. (whose presence is constantly missed).
–and so Ed outs himself as NaN AND breaks my rule of not invoking Bob.
Ah, the old split personality.
Let’s see. From Friday morning to Sunday afternoon I drove my wife’s 2019 Highlander V6 700 miles. I filled up once. The wife did note that I left her with a ¼ tank. How many recharges would that be for a three row electric suv ?
None. There are no three row electric suvs for sale.
Yes please, let’s lift a glass for Dave (OFD). The reminder was in my calendar, but my computer was at home, and I was not. Thank you to those of you who noticed.
I have far too many reminders during the month of September, work friends, old friends, family, and Dave. Oddly, three of them are for guys named “Dave” who all went by other nicknames.
I wonder if anyone does a list of the most common names for deaths each year, the way they do it for births?
I’m beat. I’ll see y’all tomorrow.
Some of you may have heard the news of a massive privacy breach by the 2nd largest telecom provider here in oz.
Rough estimation is about 10 million clients are affected. (including me.. 🙁 )
The main concerns are that email addresses, passport and/or drivers licence numbers, mobile numbers and DOB are now out in the wild.
All of these are required as proof of ID when creating an account. So it is obvious the amount of damage that can be caused by anyone with these details.
Anyway… amongst all the FUD, The main rumour is that this was not a hack, but the company’s API was exposed to the internet for “testing purposes” by an employee, either in error or deliberate. But as I said, just a rumour at this stage.
So, much finger pointing, plus wailing and gnashing of teeth is underway, then at some hopeful point, the truth will immerge..
A Daily Mail link for those interested. https://bit.ly/3dLWglJ
@MrK, y’all are doomed when they quote someone like this…
– Crims want to steal people’s info, whoda thunkit?
Ed comment marked spam
>> None. There are no three row electric suvs for sale.
@lynn, sure there are:
Tesla Model X
Tesla Model Y
Which of those are available for less than $100k? I’ll go $80k, about double the cost of a Highlander with three rows of seats.
Rivian isn’t a real company, but setting that aside, the R1S isn’t available right now.
Honestly, I regret indulging the spouse’s desire for a third row of seats since that led to her decision to buy the Exploder. Beyond the mechanical issues, we ended up being the de facto Girl Scout troop transportation since the Indian and Chinese parents buy sedans or teeny SUVs like the Juke then expect the polite Americans with their big vehicles to always do the kid hauling.
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